ENGINE SWAP !

Larger 4 cylinder engines, body mods, major brake and handling modifications.

Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby Panky » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:18 pm

Yes I can see the problem there. I'm familiar with Davies Craig, fitted one to my Rapier powered Commer Auto-Sleeper - but without the speed controller. Drilled a couple of holes in the thermostat, as suggested by them, instead. It wasn't that much more expensive than a new mechanical pump and I enjoyed plumbing it in.
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby 58 MOGGY » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:03 pm

Wowzer philthehill,love the engine,thought when you said 135+bhp i thought that alot,but now i know why,she a beauty,i see back axle set for four link,is this for future or dont rules allow,and all axles i managed to break were all straight from the scrap yard non modified,bit like my english ford axle if standard i would destroy it every time i went out,they dont like 350bhp,but super strong american strange shafts and plated diff should be indestructible (hopefully :D )
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby 58 MOGGY » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:27 pm

Just been looking on the manx racing link that philthehill put up,i want one of these,pleeaase Father Christmas put one in my stocking
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby philthehill » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:50 pm

58 Moggy.
Whilst the axle casing is fitted for 5 link suspension I have not used it in the five link mode as my suspension is fairly taut in the fore and aft and side thrust direction. I did have a Panard rod fitted but it did not make a lot of difference so it was removed.
The axle as shown was built up by another well known hill climb Minor competitor but it fell foul of the regulations as the forward location of the top links encroached into the rear passenger compartment and for a production car that was not allowed. The axle came my way as part of a job lot of spares from the other Minor and as the casing was in slightly better condition it replaced the original.

Anyway that is enough about my Minor - hopefully I have demonstrated that it is not an absolute given that when the engine is changed and an increase in power occurs the axle has to be changed.
But of course it does mean that the axle shafts (preferably upgraded) and diff have to be in good condition to start with otherwise failure is to be expected.
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby Custard » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:06 am

Can't speak for the diff, but the shafts definitely don't like being forced in opposite directions, so bigger brakes and little or no engine braking seems to make them last longer too.

And for the same reason always mark them when removed and make sure they go back in the same side, only brand new ones can go in either side.

Sorted suspension helps too as if the axle starts hopping it is obviously putting shock loads on the shaft.

I do think I should have gone Ford pattern when I got the discs though and fitted a Ford rear axle which has heavier wheel studs as standard.

That is what I would do if I was doing it again.

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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby BLOWNMM » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:46 am

Sean
Definately never use a shaft in a different side. They take up a set and are almost sure to break. I have just fitted 2 NOS EN 17 half shafts. Standard ones are EN 8 with a strength of 700 Mpa whereas EN 17 are 1140 MPA. I have also fitted tramp bars similar to Philthehills. These are an absolute must to keep the rear axle in one piece.
Bob

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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby cardiffrob » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:49 pm

Hello again, Bob.

I was thinking of anti-tramp rods for our road car to stop the tramp it gets in 1st and reverse. How much flex in the ends would be sensible? I see yours are solid Rose/Heim joints but that might be a bit harsh for us, unless you think otherwise? One solid and one rubber?

Cheers

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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby Custard » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:24 pm

Very nice.

Mine is the JLH set up so shorter angled bars above the axle, a Panhard Rod and vertical adjustable telescopics.

The bars are not rose jointed but use bushes.

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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby BLOWNMM » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:40 pm

Rob
I made my bars after consulting Phillthehill and used rose joints as he did. There is no perceptable difference in the ride.
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby BLOWNMM » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:44 am

Rob
Having given some thought to rubber verses rose joints, if using rubber at both ends the axle would tramp at a certain frequency. If using a rubber at one end and a rose joint at the other I would guess the frequency would be higher which I suspect may be more detrimental to the axle innards. I am not an engineer or metalurgist these are only guesses, however eliminating tramp entirely with rose joints at both ends would eliminate any tramping which is what is required. What are your thoughts?
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby cardiffrob » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:40 pm

The Panhard on my Midget was Rose joints and after a while they got wet enough (It rains here a lot) and slop developed over time to become a rattle. I was thinking about large-width, hard Metalastic bushes or polybushes. I see your point about the harmonics. I can also save a lot of money and labour if I don't have to thread stuff. I was thinking of thick wall steel tube construction?

Dumb question time...how do you go about assembling the plates to the front hanger? Do you have a large hole in the side of the outer plate to get the front spring pivot through?




Sorry for the thread hijack but my email account was hacked last week and I still can't use it to contact anyone. :evil:
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby philthehill » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:47 pm

The front plates are easily attached to the spring hanger.
For the inner plate the two 1/4" bolts holding the hanger pin plate in place are opened out to 5/16") and the plate bolted in place over the top of the pin seat/plate. For the outer plate the plate is held in place by the eye pin and an additional 5/16" bolt.
The bottom of the plates are held the correct distance apart by the pin through the plates spherical joint and spacers.

Bob has gone one step further and machined new pins with a spigot (see his photo) as additional location / security of the inner plate.

There is no side thrust forces with this method of attachment all forces are fore and aft and transmitted through the plates into the spring hanger and on into the body - therefore the side plates must be a tight fit into the corner of the spring hanger - the 5/16" bolts are therefore sufficient to locate the plates but if you have access to machining facilities the revised pin with extra spigot is a bonus.
Top photo is the inner plate and the bottom photo is the outer plate.
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby cardiffrob » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:22 pm

I'm just wondering if the early Lowlight is different at the spring hanger. On mine you must fit the 1/4 bolts through the hanger and locating plates before the spring pin goes in as it isn't possible to get to the bolt heads after the spring is in. If that is the case with all the cars, how do fit the pin? Does the outboard new plate have a large access hole cut into it?
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby philthehill » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:28 pm

The early Minor did not have the plate front spring (Pt No: ACA5271 (MOSS)). The large head of the pin (Pt No: ACA5305 (MOSS)) was just fitted into the spring hanger.
The revised spring hanger and front spring plate were fitted in response to the spring hanger wearing and allowing the large head of the pin to rattle in the spring hanger. The spring front plate became a sacrificial plate (easily renewable instead of renewing the whole spring hanger).
I have posted above a photo of the both the inner and outer plate and it can be seen that there is no large hole - the inner plate just bolts on top of the plate front spring. The pin (Pt No: ACH5180 (MOSS) from chassis No: 497583) is fitted before the inner plate is bolted on.
Whilst the access to the two 1/4" (or 5/16") plate front spring bolt heads is tight they are accessible.
If you want a straight bolt on anti tramp bar system here is the link to the ESM kit :-
http://www.morrisminorspares.com/rear-s ... up-p831360
Note that the side plates do not have a large hole in them to allow fitment or removal if the pin.
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Re: ENGINE SWAP !

Postby BLOWNMM » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:36 am

Originally I was going to use steel tube 21.3 OD x 2.6 wall and weld in left and right hand threaded ends from McGill Motorsport, but because they took 20 days to arrive I became impatient and looked at alloy solid bar. 6061 bar at 22.23 OD weighed in at 515 gms. as against 720 gms. for the steel without the threaded ends so I went for the alloy. I bought a set of LH 3/8 inch UNF taps - only carbon steel for probably a one off job and threaded the bar LH and RH for better adjustment. The taps were also used to make LH threaded locknuts for the rose joints. The retaining bolts for plate ACA5271 its retaining holes in the hanger were enlarged to 8 mm as Phil had done. These same 8 mm holes were reproduced on the outside of the hangers. The pin was made from 4140 with 3/8" threads on both ends for added strength. The plates were individually made to be a firm fit against the top of the spring hanger, and not all being the same were marked for identification. Because the 8 mm bolts at the front had to be fitted before the spring and pin there was a problem in how to keep them in place during assembly when the plates were fitted. This was solved with a thin piece of wood slipped into the slot at the front of the hanger with the end tapered so as when tapped into place it held the heads of the bolts securely outward till the plates were fitted. The rear 8 mm bolts are not a problem as they are accessible with the spring in place. All fastners are grade 8 (class 10.9) and the plates zinc plated. Rob - as far as the rose joints clagging out my car is a hobby one doing minimum mileage and does not go out in the rain often, and there is no salt on our local roads. If they do develop problems I will rethink but definately will not use rubber joints. Phil - I can't see how the ESM kit can be fitted with the plates being hard up against the top of the hangar as I found the holes in the hangers to vary by up to 1/2 to 3/4 mm. or so.
If there is anything I have missed give me a buzz and I will respond.
Bob
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